overshot bite free sample

Occlusion is defined as the relationship between the teeth of the maxilla (upper jaw) and mandibles (lower jaw). When this relationship is abnormal a malocclusion results and is also called an abnormal bite or an overbite in dogs and cats.

Class III malocclusions are considered underbites in dogs and cats; the mandibles are longer in respect to their normal relationship to the maxilla. Class III malocclusions are commonly seen in brachycephalic dogs (boxers, pugs, boston terriers, etc).

While cats do not get malocclusions nearly as frequently as dogs, they are not free from this problem. When present, felines malocclusions tend to be more severe and can cause more problems. There is a definitely a breed predisposition for cats with malocclusions. Persians and Himalayan cats tend to have a higher incidence of malocclusions, most frequently underbites.

Just as with dogs, cats with malocclusions should always be evaluated by a veterinarian and treated if their bite is traumatic and causing them pain. Malocclusions are frequently diagnosed in kittens. These abnormal bites are often painful and the sooner they are treated, the better the prognosis for gaining a pain-free and functional bite.

Malocclusions can result in an abnormal bite which can affect function and result in pain. Malocclusions predispose the patient to periodontal disease, endodontic (pulp) disease and oral trauma.

Our belief at Animal Dental Care and Oral Surgery is that all pets deserve a pain-free and functional bite. In most situations, the earlier a malocclusion is diagnosed the better the prognosis.

Although complete correction of certain teeth misalignments may not be possible, there is always something we can do to improve the functionality of the bite and make the patient comfortable. For best results, it is important to recognize a malocclusion as early as possible.

Known as a canine overbite, the upper canine tooth is sitting in front of the lower canine tooth and is pointed forward. This is referred to as a mesioverted or “lance” canine tooth. Compare this image to the normal occlusion in figure 2.

Known as a canine underbite, the lower incisors are in front of the upper incisors and the lower canine tooth is resting against the back of the upper 3rd incisor. This bite is common in brachycephalic breeds, such as boxers and pugs.

Many standards are explicit in their bite description, down to an exact number of teeth. Other breeds, such as the Scottish Deerhound, simply require dentition to be strong and level.

Sporting: For the majority of sporting breed standards, less is more when it comes to describing the bite, which is most often scissors. But the Gordon Setter standard contains an interesting inclusion: Pitted teeth from distemper or allied infections are not penalized.

Hounds: The Otterhound might be known for his shaggy coat and webbed feet, but his bite is certainly the most unique among hound breeds: The jaws are powerful and capable of a crushing grip.

Working: The Working Group contains the most stringent dental standards. For example, breeds such as the Doberman Pinscher, German Pinscher, Leonberger must have precisely 42 teeth. That’s why the Cane Corso stands out—the bite is less important than the overall head structure: Bite: Slightly undershot (no more than a quarter inch) and level preferred. Scissor bite is acceptable, if parameters of the head and muzzle are correct.

Terriers: Despite his dandelion coif and saucer eyes, the Dandie Dinmont Terrier is equipped with a set of teeth capable of hunting badgers. The standard spares no words in describing both bite and number of teeth: The teeth meet in a tight scissors bite. The teeth are very strong, especially the canines, which are an extraordinary size for a small dog. The canines mesh well with each other to give great holding and punishing power. The incisors in each jaw are evenly spaced and six in number.

Toy: As companion dogs, most toy breeds have lax dental standards, forgiving a few missing teeth. The Japanese Chin even includes instructions to judges when examining bite: The Japanese Chin is very sensitive to oral examination. If the dog displays any hesitancy, judges are asked to defer to the handler for presentation of the bite.

Non-Sporting: The Bulldog’s bite is among the breed’s signature features, and the standard is precise in its description: The jaws should be massive, very broad, square and “undershot,” the lower jaw projecting considerably in front of the upper jaw and turning up. … The teeth should be large and strong, with the canine teeth or tusks wide apart, and the six small teeth in front, between the canines, in an even, level row.

Herding: Many herding breed standards instruct the judge to overlook broken or missing teeth lost in the line of duty. The Australian Cattle Dog standard provides a perfect visual image of why good teeth are essential to function: The teeth, sound, strong and evenly spaced, gripping with a scissor-bite, the lower incisors close behind and just touching the upper. As the dog is required to move difficult cattle by heeling or biting, teeth which are sound and strong are very important.

A dog"s bottom jaw will continue growing until the age of 10 - 12 months. Until this time a slight undershot will often correct itself naturally with ageing. A severe overshot is unlikely to correct itself but is not a significant health issue for the dog. Overshot dog"s can still lead healthy lives as happy and loving pets regardless of this problem. Dog"s with an overbite should not be shown or bred from.UNDERSHOT BITE:also referred to as an underbite. This when the bottom jaw is longer than the top jaw and the incisors on the bottom jaw protrude past those of the top jaw. This type of bite is actually correct for breeds such as the bulldog. An underbite generally does not adversly effect the dog in anyway. These dogs still make loving and healthy pets but should not be shown or bred from.LEVEL BITE:also called the pinscer bite. This is where both jaws are the same length and the incisors meet edge to edge. This bite does not affect the dog adversely in any way but can cause premature wearing of the incisor teeth. Often in a slightly older dog the bite can go from scissor to level with ageing.WRY BITE:This is where the bottom jaw is twisted and the incisors do not meet in a correct straight scissor bite. This type of bite is not very common and generally the dog suffers no ill effects. A dog with a wry mouth should not be shown or bred from.

In most cases and overshot, undershot, level or wry bite is not a serious condition and should not discourage someone from purchasing such a pup unless their intentions are specifically to show or breed. In the wild a dog with an incorrect bite could have great difficulty hunting and killing prey. For the purposes of a pet an incorrect mouth is not a serious concern as modern prepared dog foods are in palatable sized portions. An incorrect bite would however exclude a dog from a working career where the dog was required to use it"s mouth, for example, herding or police work.BITE GENETICSThe inheritance mode of a dog"s bite is largely unknown and litters may present with confusing outcomes. However, because an incorrect bite can be determined by 12 months of age, a dog with such a fault can be excluded from a breeding programme.

Incorrect bites vary greatly with respect to severity and occurrence. Some breeds and lines within breeds appear to have a higher incidence of bite faults than others. It has also been found that dogs with undershot bites often result from parents with correct scissor bites. This would indicate that the fault is recessive but no conclusive proof is available.

Dogs who produce offspring with bite faults should not necessarily be exclude from a breeding programme because of this reason alone. There is a saying, "Don"t throw out the baby with the bathwater." Which basically means that a good example of the breed both in conformation and temperament should not be excluded solely because it has produced offspring with an incorrect bite. Other offspring from this dog may be perfectly correct in mouth. To exclude such a dog would mean eliminating valuable genetic material from the population unnecessarily. To breed from this dog would however mean that the fault can not be eliminated completely from future generations and as such the offspring would need to be checked for this fault. Often a recessive fault can go unseen for several generations before it makes an appearance again.

It has also been suggested that the bite might not be entirely governed by genetics and that the size of the actual incisors can play a role in the bite. In our own breeding programme we have observed that dogs with larger incisors are less likely to have an even or overshot bite as an older dog.

Because the bottom jaw continues to grow until the dog reaches 12 months is has been observed that a puppy with a slight overshot bite has corrected. Hence it is sometimes worth retaining an otherwise promising puppy that may have a very slight gap in the jaws at a young age. Some people say that a matchstick gap is ideal. Puppies with smaller incisors and no gap can actually go even or undershot. Some breeders also believe that a slight overshot can be corrected by administering the puppy extra calcium supplements at a young age while the jaw is still growing.

A bite can stay the same throughout puppyhood or change greatly as the dog grows during the first year. There is no hard and fast rule. We have observed a particular puppy go from being overshot to scissor to even to undershot in the space of several months while it"s littermates held perfect scissor bites the whole time.MISSING TEETH (incomplete dentition)Another concern from a breeding perspective is dogs that have missing teeth. For most working and herding breeds the standard requires full dentition (42 teeth).

Although missing teeth are certainly not desirable in a show or breeding dog, there are very few standards that actually describe this as a serious or disqualifying fault (one of which is the German Shepherd Dog). The ANKC standards for the Australian breeds do not state that full dentition is required therefore although not desirable, a dog should not be penalised for having a missing tooth.MOUTH HEALTHA puppy"s teeth and bite should be regularly checked whilst they are growing. This is to ensure that the bite is correct but also to make sure that the deciduous teeth fall out correctly as the permanent teeth grow in. It is possible for a puppy to retain baby teeth particularly the canine teeth (this is quite common in smaller breeds). These teeth will need to be pulled or removed if they don"t fall out naturally. Sometimes the tooth is already loosened by the permanent tooth and can just be wiggled and will come free. It the tooth is still deep rooted and not loose it may need to be removed by a veterinarian.

Judged by its conformation according to the classification of Pierre Mégnin (1889) the Cane Corso is a typical “molossian” (this is the same as saying “mastiff”) whereas, when considered functionally, it is a “catch dog”. The focal feature of a catch dog is the holding bite with which it fastens onto its adversary, tires and overcomes it. The holding bite is different from the ordinary bite in that the grip becomes locked and the animal shuts its mind off, becoming insensible to anything that might be happening to it. The paradigm of this behavioural trait is to be found in an episode from the saga of Alexander the Great. Having crossed the Hydaspes River (the present Jehlam River in Punjab) and beaten King Porus, the conqueror was then met and entertained by king Sophites. In the course of ensuing festivities, the king, wanting to impress Alexander with the valour of his catch dogs, unleashed four onto a lion which was duly attacked and held. One of the king’s archers then entered the pit and cut a leg off one of the dogs. But the dog did not let go. The other legs were also severed but the dog died with its jaws still locked. Today, after more than two thousand years and many turns of history, this remains the same prized behavioural trait when the work of a catch dog is described. An example for all is the American Pit Bull Terrier, a dog which still has the good fortune of being bred for work. Those that use this breed say you must look for the “holding dog”; the one that will hang on to its adversary (boar, razorback, steer) even at the cost of its life. How did this behavioural trait arise? One explanation could be that it is the same instinct that makes a puppy hang on for dear life to its mother’s dug. The number of puppies in a litter is often in excess of the available dugs and it is a grim battle for survival that is fought for the source of nourishment because the losers are doomed to weaken and die. Once a puppy has fastened onto a dug it is in a state of bliss and nothing will detach it before it is gorged, and this is much the same mental state of a Cane Corso with a hold. At this point it is significant to recall how the old-timers of the Cane Corso proceed to choose those puppies to keep and those to cull soon after birth. The man first waits for the litter to begin suckling in earnest and then calls the bitch to him. As the bitch gets up and walks a few steps, he notices which of the puppies stays hanging on the dugs. These will be the best.

If a powerful holding bite is the very essence of the Cane Corso then it follows then that its jaws should be mechanically perfect. The upper and lower jaws should be of the same length and the teeth should be completely developed and interlock without fault. This is the condition dictated by nature and is therefore the most functional.

The undershot condition is not caused by the lengthening of the lower jaw but by the shortening of the upper jaw and nose. It determines a loss of efficiency in the use of teeth not only in the holding bite but also in mastication and in the care of the epidermis. Furthermore, a short nose causes problems in breathing and ventilation as witnessed in the forever open mouth of the English Bulldog, Boxer, Pug, Pekinese, and of other prognathous breeds. The canine brain requires a lower temperature than the rest of the body and it is cooled by air inhaled into the nasal cavity. Thus dogs with short noses have little resistance to protracted physical exercise because they quickly become overheated.

The incisor teeth are used by the dog for nipping, getting at fleas and other problems of the skin, but if the bite is “even” they wear down quickly and lose their efficiency. An “inverted scissors bite” is a more serious handicap because it often leads to the undershot condition where all the upper and lower rows of teeth do not meet properly. This impairs mastication and sometimes keeps the dog from closing its mouth properly, making it drool all the time. In my experience, a true Cane Corso should never present this condition. Where the Cane Corso is bred for work the undershot jaw stays away. On the other hand, the inverted scissors bite, the initial stage of the undershot condition, does in fact crop up here and there in the breed. This condition may be tolerated if the rest of the teeth lock correctly but it should not be encouraged and preferably weeded out

It is important that the horse"s incisor bite be checked with the head in the normal resting position and not raised up high. Raising the head high, or extending the poll joint, will cause the lower jaw (mandible) to slide backwards (caudally) slightly (approx 3- 10 mm). Conversely, when the head is lowered and the poll flexes, the lower jaw (mandible) slides forward.

Foals with an overbite, commonly called a parrot mouth, have upper incisors that protrude past the lower incisors. While some breeders droop their shoulders and shake their heads when faced with affected foals, floundering in their misfortune, others pick up the phone and call the equine orthodontist.

Parrot mouth, long believed to be an inherited condition, reportedly affects 2-5% of the equine population to some degree. Although common in other species, like humans, any degree of overbite is considered abnormal in horses.

“Other animals with an overshot jaw have difficulty grasping food because of misaligned incisors. In horses, incisor malalignment is obvious but not necessarily a significant problem, because they are capable of seizing food with their lips. The major concern is the potential development of cheek-teeth disorders that inhibit their ability to chew,” shared Kathleen Crandell, Ph.D., an equine nutritionist for Kentucky Equine Research.

Foals with an overshot jaw are therefore at risk of malnutrition, slow growth, and the development of additional dental problems. For example, lack of contact between the upper and lower incisors can result in overgrowth of incisors and cheek teeth, known as premolars. In addition, this lack of contact may trap the lower incisors behind the upper incisors, potentially contributing to the lack of lower jaw growth, which exacerbates the condition as the foal grows.

According to a recent study*, tension band wires on the upper dental arcade either with or without the use of a bite plate on the floor of the mouth, under the tongue, successfully corrects or improves the condition. Researchers reported the following observations from the study:

In addition, it may not be ethical to breed animals with corrected bites, considering parrot mouth is strongly believed to be an inherited unsoundness.

What happens when you peek into the mouth of a patient and note that one or more teeth are out of place? Hopefully you don"t quickly close the mouth, hoping that the pet owner didn"t spot the problem. (Out of sight, out of mind.) It"s much better to let your client know when something isn"t right in their pet"s mouth and explain what it will take to fix a poor or nonfunctional bite. But before you can recommend orthodontic care for your patients, you"ll need to embrace the concepts of malposition and malocclusion.

Occlusion refers to the relationship between the maxillary and mandibular teeth when they approach each other, as occurs during chewing or rest. Normal occlusion exists when the maxillary incisors just overlap the mandibular incisors (Figure 1A), the mandibular canines are equidistant from the maxillary third incisors and the maxillary canine teeth, and the premolar crown tips of the lower jaw point between the spaces of the upper jaw teeth in a saw-toothed fashion (Figure 1B). Flat-faced breeds, such as boxers, shih tzus, Boston terriers, Lhasa apsos and Persian cats, have abnormal bites that are recognized as normal for their breed in which the mandibular jaw protrudes in front of the maxillary jaw, altering the above tooth-to-tooth relationship (Figures 2A and 2B).

Mandibular distoclusion (also called overbite, overjet, overshot, class 2, and mandibular brachygnathism) occurs when the lower jaw is shorter that the upper and there"s a space between the upper and lower incisors when the mouth is closed. The upper premolars will be displaced rostrally (toward the nose) compared with the lower premolars. Mandibular distoclusion is never normal in any breed (Figures 3A and 3B).

Figure 3B. A dog"s mandibular distocluson.Mandibular mesioclusion (also called underbite, undershot, reverse scissor bite, prognathism, and class 3) occurs when the lower teeth protrude in front of the upper teeth. If the upper and lower incisor teeth meet each other edge to edge, the occlusion is an even or a level bite (Figure 4).

Figure 4. Mandibular mesioclusion in a dog.Maxillary mandibular asymmetry (also called wry bite, especially by breeders) is a skeletal malocclusion in which one side of the jaw grows differently from the other side (Figures 5A and 5B).

Rostral cross bite occurs when the canine and premolar teeth on both sides of the mouth are normally aligned but one or more of the lower incisors are positioned in front of the upper incisors (Figure 6).

Figure 6. Rostral cross bite.Mesioverted mandibular canines (also called lingually displaced canines or base narrow canines) occur when the lower canine teeth protrude inward, impinging on or penetrating the maxillary gingiva (Figure 7). Often this condition is due to retained deciduous teeth. The resulting trauma can be alleviated through tooth movement, crown reduction and restoration, or extraction.

An under bite (under shot, reverse scissors bite, prognathism, class 3) occurs when the lower teeth protrude in front of the upper jaw teeth. Some short muzzled breeds (Boxers, English Bull Dogs, Shih-Tzu’s, and Lhasa Apsos) normally have an under bite, but when it occurs in medium muzzled breeds it is abnormal. When the upper and lower incisor teeth meet each other edge to edge, the occlusion is considered an even or level bite. Constant contact between upper and lower incisors can cause uneven wear, periodontal disease, and early tooth loss. Level bite is considered normal in some breeds, although it is actually an expression of under bite.

Bite faults are one of the first hereditary defects a fledgling dog breeder learns to recognize. Teeth are right out there where everybody can take a look at them. Once you learn what is right for your breed, it isn’t difficult to recognize what is wrong. Though a dedicated cheat may “improve” a dog’s bite through orthodonture, there are limits to what can be done. For the most part, what you see is what you’ve got.

In order to fully understand bite faults, you must also understand what is correct and why. This goes beyond having the right number of the right teeth in the right places. A dog’s dental equipment is a direct inheritance from his wild carnivorous ancestor, the wolf. Dog dentition is also very similar to the wolf’s smaller cousin, the coyote. Figure 1 is a coyote skull, exhibiting a normal canine complement of teeth. Each jaw has six incisors at the front, followed by two canines, then eight premolars (four to a side). When we come to the molars, the top and bottom jaws differ. The lower jaw has six and the upper only four. A normal dog will have a total of 42 teeth.

The canines are most critical to catching and holding prey. Readers familiar with police K9s or Schutzhund will know that the preferred grip is a “full mouth bite:” The dog grasps the suspect’s arm or leg well into its mouth, between its molars and premolars and behind the canines. This is not the way a wolf does it, for reasons that will be explained shortly.

All these specialized teeth are not independent entities. Their position in the jaw is determined by their function and they require a properly formed skull and lower jaw to function efficiently. The muzzle must be long enough and broad enough to accommodate the teeth in their proper locations. The animal must have sufficient bite strength to hold onto whatever it has grabbed, be it prey or perpetrator. Jaw strength comes not only from the muscles, but the shape of the skull.

Figure 4 shows the skulls of a coyote and an Australian Shepherd. Aussies have normally-shaped heads, so the shape of its skull is very similar to that of the coyote. The jaw muscles attach to the lower jaw and along the sagittal crest, the ridge of bone along the top and back of the skull. In between it passes over the zygomatic arch, or cheekbone. Wrapping around the cheekbone gives the bite much more strength than would a straight attachment from topskull to jaw. This attachment also serves to cushion the brain case from the flailing hooves of critters that don’t want to become dinner or get put in a pen.

You will note that the crest on the coyote is more pronounced than on the Aussie and its teeth are proportionally larger. This is a typical difference between domestic dogs and their wild kin. Wild canids need top efficiency from their dental equipment to survive. We have been providing food for our dogs for so long that the need for teeth as large and jaws as strong as their wolf ancestors has long passed. Fig 5 Coyote (left) and Aussie (right). Note the straighter angulation around the zygomatic arch (cheekbone) of the Aussie. Jaw strength is reduced in the dog by a less acute angle around the zygomatic arch. Note the more pronounced angle in the coyote as compared to the Aussie. (Fig. 5) This is another typical difference between wolf or coyote and dog skulls. The larger sagital crest allows for a larger, and therefore stronger, muscle. The only breed with an angulation around the zygomatic arch that approaches that of the wolf is the American Pit Bull Terrier/American Staffordshire Terrier. Pit/AmStaffs also have a relatively short jaw, giving their heads a more cat-like structure: Broad + Short + Strong Muscles = Lots of Bite Strength.

The more we have altered skull and jaw shape from the norm, the less efficient the mouth has become. In some cases, this isn’t particularly important. There is no reason for a Collie or a Chihuahua to bite with the strength of a wolf. However, jaws that are so short it is impossible for all the teeth to assume normal positions and undershot bites that prevent proper occlusion of the canines and incisors are neither efficient nor functional, despite volumes of breed lore justifying those abnormalities in breeds where they are considered desirable.

For most breeds, like the Australian Shepherd, the skull shape has remained relatively normal. The short muzzle of the Pug and the undershot bite of a Bullmastiff, while quite acceptable in those breeds, would be deemed severe faults in Aussies and other normal-skulled breeds.

Missing teeth obviously are not there to do the work they are intended for. They should be considered a fault. The degree of the fault can vary, depending on which teeth and how many are missing. The teeth most likely to be absent are premolars, though molars and sometimes incisors may occasionally fail to develop. Missing a first premolar, one of the smallest teeth, is much less a problem than missing an upper 4th premolar, a carnasal. The more teeth that are missing, the more faulty and less functional the bite becomes. If you have a dog with missing teeth, it should not be bred to other dogs with missing teeth or to the near relatives of such dogs. Though multiple missing teeth are not specifically faulted in either Australian Shepherd standard, you should think long and hard before using a dog that is missing more than a couple of premolars. Fig 6 Undershot bite. While the molars and some of the premolars occlude properly, the incisors and canines don"t even meet and are essentially useless. This is a farmed silver fox. Malocclusions this severe are extremely unusual in wild foxes. (photo courtesy Lisa McDonald) Malocclusions most frequently result from undershot and overshot bites, anterior crossbite and wry mouth. An undershot bite occurs when the lower jaw extends beyond the upper. This may happen because the lower jaw has grown too long or the upper jaw is too short. Selecting for shorter muzzles can lead to underbites. An overshot bite is the opposite, with the upper jaw longer than the lower. In either case, the teeth will not mesh properly. With slight over or undershot bites, the incisors may be the only teeth affected, but sometimes the difference in jaw length is extreme (Fig. 6) leaving most or all of the teeth improperly aligned against those in the opposite jaw. A bite that is this far off will result in teeth that cannot be used at all, teeth that interfere with each other, improper wear and, in some cases, damage to the soft tissues of the opposite jaw by the canines.

In wry mouth, one side of the lower jaw has grown longer than the other, skewing the end of the jaw to one side. The incisors and canines will not align properly and may interfere. It is sometimes confused with anterior crossbite, in which some, but not all, of the lower incisors will extend beyond the upper incisors but all other teeth mesh properly.

Minor malocclusions, including “dropped” incisors and crooked teeth, also occur in some dogs. Dropped incisors are center lower incisors that are shorter than normal. Sometimes they will tip slightly outward and, when viewed in profile, may give the appearance of a bite that is slightly undershot. Dropped incisors tend to run in families and are therefore hereditary. Crooked teeth may be due to crowding in a too-small or too-narrow jaw or the result of damage to the mouth, though the former is more likely.. Fig 7 Even (level) bite. This is a wolf. Some consider an even, or level, bite to be a type of malocclusion. Breed standards vary on whether they do or do not fault it. In the Australian Shepherd, the ASCA standard faults it while the AKC standard does not. There is clearly no consensus among dog people. Those who fault the even bite claim that it causes increased wear of the incisors, but there is little evidence to support this. A number of years ago the author, upon coming across a wolf with an even bite (Fig. 7), undertook a survey of wolf dentition. Teeth and jaws were inspected on 39 wolves, 9 of which were captive and the balance skulls of wild wolves trapped over a wide span of time and geography. Of the 39, 16 had even bites. This included five of the captive group, all of whom were related. Even discounting those, fully a third of the wild wolves had even bites. No structural fault is tolerated to this degree in a natural species, particularly in a feature so critical to the survival of that species.

As stated previously, bite faults and missing teeth are likely to be polygenic in inheritance. Each is also variable in the degree of fault between individuals. Dogs that have dental faults bad enough to be considered disqualifications under the breed standard ought not to be bred. Minor bite faults have only minimal impact on the dog’s ability to function. Before it is bred, the degree of a dog’s dental faults will have to be weighed along with all the other virtues and faults the dog has. If the dog is then considered worthy for breeding, it should not put to mates of similar pedigree (where genes for the fault clearly lurk,) or to mates from families where the it’s dental fault is known to occur. If, when being so bred, the faulty dog throws multiple offspring with the same dental fault, or produces affected pups with different mates, then it should probably be withheld from any further breeding.

So now you know not only what can be wrong with a bite, but why. Bite faults are one of the easier hereditary problems to deal with. Even if you are a relative beginner, with an understanding of dental structure and function you can evaluate the quality of not only your own dog’s dentition, but that of any other dogs whose mouths you might gaze into. Check out as many as you can and remember who has (or does not have) what and who they are related to. Armed with this knowledge, you can make informed breeding decisions for your own dogs.

I had a heck of a time finding any information on the internet in regards to the mode of inheritance for underbites. I have tried to research this subject given I have produced underbites in one of my lines My one vet seem to understand it say he understands the mode of inheritance very well so here is his explanation.

OK...back to underbites. For the sake of example...let’s say that the 4 genes that control the degree of underbites is genes "w" "x" "y" and "z". The worst underbite like a Bulldog would be carrying "ww" "xx" "yy" "zz" A dog with NO underbite AND not carrying any recessive genes would be "WW" "XX" "YY" "ZZ".

Naturally I am not going to go into all the possible combinations or examples that could produce underbites as it would be too lengthy...but here are a few examples of different scenarios

Scenario 1 Dam has no Underbite but is carrying only one recessive gene ..let’s say she is "Ww" "XX" "YY" "ZZ" Sire has no underbite but is carrying only one recessive gene also..let’s say he is "WW " "XX" "Yy" "ZZ"

Result = NO pups with underbites but some may be carries of "w" and/or "y" Using the same example above lets" say the sire is also carrying "w" like the dam. Results = you COULD have a puppy with a slight underbite IF mom passed her "w" AND the dad passed his "w" also. The pups with the slight underbite would be "ww"

Scenarios 2) Dam HAS an SLIGHT Underbite and is NOT carrying other single recessives ..let’s say she is "ww" "XX" "YY" "ZZ" (she has an UNDEBITE because she is "ww") Sire has no underbite and is NOT carrying ANY recessive gene also..let’s say he is "WW " "XX" "YY" "ZZ"

Scenarios 3) Dam has no Underbite but is carrying several recessive genes ..let’s say she is "Ww" "Xx" "Yy" "ZZ" Sire has no underbite but is carrying several recessive gene also..let’s say he is "Ww " "Xx" "YY" "Zz"

If you wanted to find out if your lines are carrying underbites...then perhaps breed to another known carrier. Problem with this type of test breeding is... BOTH dogs would have to be carrying some of the SAME recessives. If one dog is carrying "w" and "x" and the other is carrying "y" and "z"...you still will NOT have pups with underbites!

Anyway...this is how Underbites were explained to me. I can"t prove if this explanation that was given to me is the gospel truth since I can"t find anything in my research. If anyone can come across modes of inheritance for underbites that can prove or disprove what I have shared...I would appreciate it if you can pass your info along .

Theoretically, from a genetics perspective can you start with a sire with a bad bite and breed what I believe to be a genetically linked trait out of future pups or grandget? Could you accomplish this goal with certainty or would it be trial and error?

Sure you could get way lucky at the start , but I"d say the odds are stacked against you. If bite is a concern to you (as it sould be), then why risk it? Over a period of time traits good or bad can show up if the genetics were there to begin with. That said, even a sire with a normal bite could throw some bad ones if he carries the gene.

c. How does the bad bite "hole" rank vs. other qualities/characteristics we breed for - specifically I"m intested in the performance characteristics of finding game, endurance, durability, natural ability, style?

d. In this day and age where a bad bite is not likely to have significant consequences, especially in the performance venue, is a bad bite really a bad thing?

For the record, probably the nicest moving, biggest hunting, ridiculously stylish dog that we"ve had out of our breedings has an overbite and we neutered him because of it. When you watch him hunt through the country and repeatedly find him standing a covey of sharpies, chukars or whatever with a look that"ll take your breath away, makes you wonder if we made a mountain out of a molehill if that makes sense...especially when I see some of the other dogs being bred out there that, per my criteria, are less desirable dogs???

The genes for the top jaw and the bottom jaw in the GSP are different. Bad bites show up (more than people like to admit) from very correct parents and I would think it very very hard to breed it out. There are lines that have more issues than others, even when all the breeding dogs have correct bites. I know a level bite tends to throw more undershot dogs leading me to suspect that breeding a over or undershot dog would give you some puppies with more extreme versions of that even than you started with.

But what is a correct bite is a good question. In a well know pointing dog training book there is a photo of "correct bite." I know a few breeders that would call that "level bite," not a correct bite. Others that would call it great. :? I am pretty sure I remember a conformation coment in the german standard regarding level bites in dogs over a certain age to be allowable, given their age IF it was correct in earlier examinations. I will try to find that... If my memory is correct that would lead me to believe that the bottom jaw continues to grow for a LONG while. I know it grows slower but this was several years.. I think

you could breed it out in theory but why? There are enough nice dogs out there to fool with why even risk passing the genes on? If you had a litter of 10 and 5 had bad bites are you willing to cull pups like should be done? Then you would have to wait generations to actually breed it out. By then you would be so far removed from the original dam and sire that you liked you would have completely different dogs. An EXTENSIVE knowledge of canine breeding and genetics would also be a must.

From what I"m reading, a "bad bite" (which I"ve not heard a good definition of) is an absolute deal breaker - apparently ranks higher than any other attribute the dog might have for that matter since it"s presence immediately gets the pup on the cull list (what the heck are you all meaning by "culling" anyway??). I"m not disagreeing, I just gotta seriously ask why...so why??

Like I said, we"ve neutered our dog with the overbite, but as a performance guy, I don"t why we did it - in no way does it affect the dog"s performance, his health, or the kids love of him???? We"ve apparently done the "right" thing for no reason as far as I can tell.

A correct bite is a scissors bite, the upper inscissors just over the lower. The reason is is bad to have incorrect bites, uneven wear, bitches that have a hard time cutting cords on pups if whelping by themselves. It just plain looks ugly. I can often times pick out an undershot dog now by looking at the head with the mouth closed, they sometimes have a very short forface (should be as long as the skull) and on bad ones the lower lip sticks out.

I look in a lot of mouths every year, dogs with teeth that don"t fit together properly, many times, end up with wear, the root is exposed, the tooth rots, gets infected, surgury is usually needed to get them out. The dog gets sick with infection ( alot of added cost to upkeep then a dog with a "correct" bite). And I am sure there are plenty of people out there with dog with bad bites that never have any problems (before everyone jumps in with theirs) but, it does happen. I have heard that a dog with a level bite (butt bite)is not that big of a risk, but don"t have any numbers.

There are several FC with bad bites out there, I was told takes 2 generations to breed it out. Does anyone "cull" like the old timers? Bucket the pups? If so why? I have seen a underbit dog not pass it on to the pups. How many are effected in a litter where one shows up? Heck with my teeth I would have been culled at birth :( for sure.......

Will every dog with a bad bite pass it on? I dont think so, maybe I am wrong but I have seen litters where it just isnt there from a dog with an underbite.

From my experience bad bites do not affect the dog’s ability to hunt. There are some functional issues like tooth wear, eating issues, and you don"t what a bitch with a bad bite as she may kill the pups when cutting the umbilical cord. It comes down to a confirmation issue. I don"t show dogs but why put a bad trait like that back into the gene pool? Neuter/Spay the animal and enjoy whatever hunting skill it has but don’t breed it IMO.

Bad bites can be bred out but it seems to have a recessive characteristic as has been pointed out so it is very difficult. You’re never quite sure if it is all the way out. Once the trait is there it seems to pop up every now and again. There are plenty of great dogs without bad bites to breed IMO.

So if it is a recessive gene, how do you knowwhat you will get in a breeding? Cull the entire litter if it shows in a good bite dog bred to a good bite dog? Anyway to tell if any dog has a recessive gene that may produce a bad bite? in the offspring?

From what I have seen, most all lines of most all breeds of dogs have bad bites somewhere, and yes, it does show up sometimes in breedings with sire and dam having perfect bites. I have turned down breedings to my studs based purely on a females bad bite. Made two guys hopping mad to say the least. But, why propogate the problem. Neuter or spay the dog and be done with it.

It is a pretty known fact that Hustler lines throw an occasional bad bite. I know, I have bred to several Hustler sons and delt with it. They also threw some of the most intelligent and natural dogs going. My old Hustler son had a butt bite. I was devestated, but had to make a decision as to what he had in a positive way to bring to the table. It far outweighed the bad IMO. I have plenty of frozen semen on him, as he threw some great dogs, but I would always recommend to people to breed to his son I owned, Logan, that rarely threw one. So yes, I think it can be bred down, maybe not out. I had a female that threw 1 overshot pup in every litter of 10. I simply sold the pup limited and it made a fine hunting dog, pet.

To me more so is the "Hips" some breeders continue to breed or have bred bitches or dogs with known Hip problems (wouldn"t pass ofa). To me this is a much more serious problem in the breed and would effect potential owners more so than the bites. Most of the time you can see a bite problem early on and eliminate from being bred, Hips can bite you more so in the generations to come even if an offspring would happen to pass. I will not breed anything unless it is OFA "Good or Excellent".

Regarding "culling" : I prefer not to use this old terminology as the images it conjures are not nice :cry: There are whole great big lists of faults and disqualifications that should not, in my opinion be continued in the gene pool knowingly. So to me "culling" would be removing a dog from the gene pool, and placing it with a great home spay/nueter/ and let the family love the dog. More than likely the dog will live a normal life, and become a loved valued hunting partner and family member. Not changing the subject from bite, but bringing in an example, I once spoke with a man who bought a very well bred puppy to run trials. Long story short, his beautiful puppy turned out to have Cone Degeneration and was quickly losing her ability to see well at all. BUT the point is he kept working with her, loved her, and actually won puppy and derby stakes with her. (she was of course spayed!) He said she had a had time in broke dog trials because she could not get through the retrieving stakes well. She loved to retrieve, but could not mark her birds very well at all.

I too have sent people on their way if they wanted to breed dogs with obivious faults, and yes, a bad bite can show up in any breeding. The reason for that is someone went and bred their dog to or with a dog that had such a bite to start the gene pool rolling. Because a dog has titles or is a fantastic field dog does not mean that dog has to, or should be used for breeding.

I like a dog that looks good to my eye as much as the next guy and, like I mentioned, we"ve neutered our dog we considered to have a "bad bite" and have ignored breedings to dogs known to have "bad bite". When I see so many other dogs being bred with what I consider performance faults - no durability, wimpy feet, little natural point, no natural retrieve, nasty temperments, etc. (generally referred to as "holes", not faults, by those rationalizing breeding "em!) makes me feel like a "tail guy" spaying/neutering dogs simply because their teeth don"t line up exactly the way the book says!! :lol: :lol:

This is the way I"m preferring to look at the subject - consider the whole package. Weigh the goods with the bads. Decide what aspects I can live with and which I can"t. Personally, a dog"s bite plays little role in my consideration of a dogs abilities. I"d much rather have a dog with an off bite than one that has to wear boots everytime out for instance. Sadly, simply, and ashamedly though, "the bite" plays a large role in my considerations of breeding simply because of the stigma that accompanies a "bad bite" - for some reason, it condemns the dog as no good and devalues the otherwise outstanding qualities that folks are willing to breed for generations to attain.

Malocclusion in it"s most simplistic terms is "bad bite." Within the standard for each breed is specifications as to what is the acceptable parameters for bite. For most breeds the scissors bite is ideal.

In this condition the upper jaw is longer than the lower jaw. There is a gap between the upper and lower incisors when the mouth is closed. Some puppies that are born with an overbite might self-correct if the bite is no larger than the head of a wooden match. In most breeds of dog the bites are "set" by the time a puppy is ten months old. An overshot bite will rarely improve after the puppy reaches ten months.

Some puppies with overshot bites will experience difficulties when their permanent teeth come in. Due to the increased size of the permanent teeth, as they come in they can damage the soft parts of the mouth. Overbites should be carefully watched, as sometimes extractions become necessary.

In this condition the lower jaw is longer than the upper jaw. If the upper and lower jaw meet each other edge to edge, the bite is referred to as an even or level bite. In some breeds of dog an underbite is the correct bite. Check your breed standard.

In this case both sides of the bite close normally, however one or more of the lower incisors are positioned in front of the upper incisors. This is the most common of all malocclusions. Anterior crossbite is not considered to be hereditary in nature and is usually correctable.

Posterior crossbite is the condition in which one or more of the lower premolars overlaps the upper premolars. This conditions is a rare occurrence, appearing predominantly in larger nosed dog breeds.

That being said, there are variations/degrees of bad bites, just like variations and degrees of bad anything. Each breeder has to know their own level of acceptance of variations and degrees of things that aren"t perfect. No dog is perfect, so each of our dogs has faults. Is the fault something that will prohibit their usefullness? Is it a fault that once accepted is very difficult to eradicate?

Will a bad bite seriously impact the dogs ability to perform? Maybe if it"s bad enough, maybe not if it"s slightly off. A level bite is not a correct scissors bite, but if I had to choose a dog with a level bite or a dog with really bad feet......give me the level bite.

I would consider breeding a dog with a slightlyoff bite, IF and only IF that dog had so much else going for it that I would be willing to take the chance. I would not breed a dog with a slightly off bite if it had multiple other faults, conformation wise or performance wise.

Anyone considering using a dog with a bite problem had better do their homework on bites in the other dogs background. Bad bite to good bite (but with bad bites back there) is going to truly BITE you down the road.

Of course you need to weigh the good and bad and if you have a dog that is so good in all other areas you may want to breed "em but you need to be aware your going to have to do some work to get that out. If you keep breeding to an incorrect mouth there are consequences just like breeding to a dog that doesn"t have hunting desire. Dead pups from a bitch that bites into their bellies by accident and as an extreme, possible eating issues which will affect their performance in the field. Guess what I"m saying is if the dogs is so good that you can overlook the bite then go for it but your going to have to breed to correct bites for a while too, so ya better have a real good reason.

II would consider breeding a dog with a off bite, IF and only IF that dog had so much else going for it that I would be willing to take the chance. I would not breed a dog with a slightly off bite if it had multiple other faults, conformation wise or performance wise

Anyone considering using a dog with a bite problem had better do their homework on bites in the other dogs background. Bad bite to good bite (but with bad bites back there) is going to truly BITE you down the road

99.9% of weim breeders completely disregard THE VERY FIRST LINE of the standard and are far more concerned with "bites." Please, for the sake of the breed, don"t let the gsp go the route of the Weimaraner over something as relatively petty as teeth.

This is a very interesting thread! Being a dental student, all I can say is I"m glad we don"t "cull" every human being with a less than perfect bite! On the other hand, it would probably cut our breeding population down by 90% (including myself, heck, I had braces and a palatal expander!) and maybe fix the overpopulation problem thats going on now :lol:

I have to agree with Favor and mtlee and Snips, You can go to any trial and see plenty of dogs with faults worse than bad bites. Bad temperments, pancake feet, biters etc. Work a dog wagon and you"ll see it all.

That said, look at peoples teeth for a few days when you are out and about, you"ll see a lot more crooked teeth and even over bites/under bites. Should we not let our children get married and have children because they have/had crooked teeth or allergies? :roll:

Can minor bite issues if not detrimental to the dogs well being be overlooked, If the dog is otherwise a superior specimen in other respects? There are dogs out there that are perfect specimens that can"t hunt all day or won"t. (I don"t hunt them all day, however I want a dog that would if you let him.)No bird drive/ bird sense.

I think the thing that gets overlooked is all of the other problems that people are willing to overlook when breeding a dog. I have seen dogs so hocked out that they couldn"t even stand up right and people talking about they couldn"t wait to get pups out of them. Or dogs that were short coupled in the front end or ran with a lopping gait that people were fired up to get pups out of. Or how about the dogs that can"t smell their food dish if you put it in the doghouse with them that are being bred everyday because, "man he sure looks nice goin". There are many other problems that need to be tackled first before we can focus on bites. What do you think causes a liver, orange and white pointer? Lets address these issues first then we can settle on bites.

Someone wrote earlier that there are enough nice dogs to breed to that you shouldn"t fool with breeding to a marginal dog. This is true but let me share a story. I have a buddy who is a shorthair guy all the way. He took 5 females and bred them all to Magnum"s Touch of Gold. Out of those litters he had 11 pups with bite problems. So its safe to say that Magnum had a habit of throwing pups with bad bites. Should people have stopped breeding to Magnum. They sure didn"t I know that.

The bottom line is that if you breed enough you have a better chance of breeding bad bites into your mix then you do breeding them out. That"s a fact.

There are a lot of things that matter alot to me. Visually, I can not stand an underbite, even in breed where it is appropiate, still bothers me. I have also seen very frequently unfortunately, issues with crooked legs. Not only turned in or out (mostly out) but not straight in the wrist. It seems that certain shorthair types have a lot of this and I see it more and more with Labs too. A straight strong leg is important. Very high rears bother me a little, and I actually do not so much like the 12 tail because it often should be a 1:00 oclock tail that curves up to 12.

Hunting wise, I am seeing some later staring dogs, with less instinct for holding point. Also less retrieving enthusiasm than I would like in some. (Our DD for example, I would have expected the breed to be even stronger in retrieveing instinct than my GSP"s, but he is not. He will retrieve, but not obsessed like many of my GSP"s do.) It seems to me if all we breed is well trained broke dogs that have been FF trained we could lose natural ability. I mean if I bred my bitch to a very well know stud dog and he was a heck of a NAVHDA dog, but had no natural retrieve, but a darn enthusiatic FF retrieve thanks to force to the pile drills, how would I know this? I may have seen the dog run and thought wow! but I don"t know what he was born with. I agree that there are not alot of great dogs. And the more I learn the more hesitant I am to look at dogs that I may think are great but I did not see throughout there lives or perhpas they are far enough away I have never seen them personally. There are some show dogs NOW throwing a ton of CH pups that are pretty narrow in the muzzle for a male. Silly or opinion but I like a male with a good headpiece. But in a few years you will see MANY pups with these pedigree, as they are the hot item. Some big time dogs throwing kinked tails, bad bites, all from VERY well known and used lines. Tri-color GSP"s showing up and more. It is tough to know about all these in dogs that you did not watch grow up, and never see or hear about the "other" puppies. But I can say I"d rather have a kinked tail or flat front or bad topline than a lack of retrieving drive. So it all has to come together and somehow balence.

There are holes in every single dog that has ever lived. I won"t breed to a dog that looks like a pointer, I won"t breed to a dog with what I consider a bad bite. I won"t breed to a dog that tends to throw bad bites, or produces pups that don"t have a ton of point, style, trainability, natural retrieve, gait, speed, etc. etc. Conformation issues should be of an enormous concern to anyone who wants some credibility in his breeding program. A well known sire right now throws pups with little point, if any. I flat don"t care if he runs out of the county, and throws like, his pups don"t point. Heck if I know if he has a good or bad bite, he throws no point and pups that die young just like his siblings. Why breed to that? "Cause he runs out of the country. You can have it!! The total package has to be considered, I can name a well known GSP who won around 25 hour championships, who has a terrible bite, he was only bred to a couple of times. Showed most breeders do consider conformation. It it comes down to being forced to breed to bad bites, round eyes, snub faces, then I"ll go to chasing hogs and breeding Catahoulas.

Can you breed out a bad bite? When I read this two things come to mind. You might be able to breed out any recessive characteristic like a bad bite, in many generations, key word being might, but we know you can breed in a bad bite real quick.

TrueBlu Shorthairs wrote:There are holes in every single dog that has ever lived. I won"t breed to a dog that looks like a pointer, I won"t breed to a dog with what I consider a bad bite. I won"t breed to a dog that tends to throw bad bites, or produces pups that don"t have a ton of point, style, trainability, natural retrieve, gait, speed, etc. etc. Conformation issues should be of an enormous concern to anyone who wants some credibility in his breeding program. A well known sire right now throws pups with little point, if any. I flat don"t care if he runs out of the county, and throws like, his pups don"t point. Heck if I know if he has a good or bad bite, he throws no point and pups that die young just like his siblings. Why breed to that? "Cause he runs out of the country. You can have it!! The total package has to be considered, I can name a well known GSP who won around 25 hour championships, who has a terrible bite, he was only bred to a couple of times. Showed most breeders do consider conformation. It it comes down to being forced to breed to bad bites, round eyes, snub faces, then I"ll go to chasing hogs and breeding Catahoulas.

What do you consider a bad bite Blake? Anything that"s not perfect when you open their mouth and have a look? Anything that"s grossly evident by just looking at the dog hands off? Something in between?? Personally, for me, it"s not simply black or white as far as calling a bite "bad" - for sure if I can tell just by viewing the dog hands off, it"s probably a significantly off bite and I"d stay away from it for breeding. If I"ve gotta open and close their mouths seeing if they"ve got a perfect scissors bite or feel with my fingers to see if it feels off, they"ve probably got a good bite in my book no matter what I ultimately decide regarding if it"s perfect or not. If the bite is off on close inspection but the vet feels it"s inconsequential, I suppose that dog would fall into the "maybe" category for breeding depending on other attributes - haven"t been faced with this, just pondering, trying to get a feel for what folks tolerances are.

I"m with ya" for sure on this as far as breeding the best specimens you can but the realty is there just isn"t the perfect specimens. That said, you"ve gotta start looking at all the qualities the various candidates for breeding bring to the table - being a performance oriented guy, an off bite that has no performance or health consequences just doesn"t seem as important to me as the other attributes we commonly consider. In a perfect world, I"m with ya" 100%!! In the real world, I"m lamenting/wrestling with our practice of pulling dogs out of the gene pool simply because of an inconsequential malocclusion of their teeth! It"s a practice we personally do, as you mention, for breeder credibility, but I guess I"d rather get the complaint that a dog has an off bite than to hear it won"t point a bird, can only hunt a half hour before it"s feet fall off, has no natural ability, just runs off, or whatever performance malady you hear folks complain of - well, I"d rather get no complaints at all!! Batting 100% so far on that knock on wood!!

I"m with ya" for sure on this as far as breeding the best specimens you can but the realty is there just isn"t the perfect specimens. That said, you"ve gotta start looking at all the qualities the various candidates for breeding bring to the table - being a performance oriented guy, an off bite that has no performance or health consequences just doesn"t seem as important to me as the other attributes we commonly consider. In a perfect world, I"m with ya" 100%!! In the real world, I"m lamenting/wrestling with our practice of pulling dogs out of the gene pool simply because of an inconsequential malocclusion of their teeth! It"s a practice we personally do, as you mention, for breeder credibility, but I guess I"d rather get the complaint that a dog has an off bite than to hear it won"t point a bird, can only hunt a half hour before it"s feet fall off, has no natural ability, just runs off, or whatever performance malady you hear folks complain of - well, I"d rather get no complaints at all!! Batting 100% so far on that knock on wood!!

If a female splits open the belly of her pups when trying to bite off the cord, how is that inconsequential? If a dog is consistently struggling with broken teeth, has to be fed gruel, etc how is that inconsequential?

As to "pulling dogs out of the gene pool"; we register 12,000 GSPs every year. The gene pool can support loosing dogs with consequential conformation faults, a fault that EVERY SINGLE conformation standard written for our breed lists as a serious fault. The best statistics we have say that bad bites affect at least 6% of the breed. Regardless of how you define "the best GSPs in America" they are without a doubt dogs with good bites; we don"t need the ones with the bad bites.

From what I"m reading, a "bad bite" (which I"ve not heard a good definition of) is an absolute deal breaker - apparently ranks higher than any other attribute the dog might have for that matter since it"s presence immediately gets the pup on the cull list (what the heck are you all meaning by "culling" anyway??). I"m not disagreeing, I just gotta seriously ask why...so why??

Why? Because avoiding bad bites is a pretty easy thing to do; don"t breed/breed to a dog with a bad bite, or from parents with a bad bite and you"ll reduce the chances of getting bad bites exponentially. Is this a perfect method? Nope, but it"s the most perfect method we"ve got. On the flip side, eliminating bad bites from a line is extremely difficult.

Doug, if I open a dog"s mouth and there is a "significant gap" if the dog has an overbite, the dog is out. If any dog has an underbite, dog is out period, no matter the gap. Just won"t mess with it.

Your right markj, it"s an open forum, but to make your claim of dog drownings as being commonplace, I think you are wrong, particularly in GSPs. Can"t speak for other breeds. You say you"ve seen it done, well, so have I. However, seeing it a few times does not make it a typical practice. And, I won"t even go into the Magnum comment. I would doubt you saw the dog more than a few times in his life and would doubt you"ve seen many of his pups in person. I owned two of his pups, sold them for different reasons. Bite wasn"t one of the reasons. Magnum was one of the finest shorthairs I have ever had the pleasure of watching run and compete.

Hey, I"m with ya" Dave for sure - did you miss reading the part where I volunteered we neutered our dog with the poor bite because we don"t want to propogate it? Who else here has done the same? If 6 out of 100 GSP"s have it, there"s gotta be a fair number of dogs amongst the GSP folk here with imperfect bites, not to mention the other breeds participating here.

What I"ve been interested in learning from this thread is what is considered "bad". (thanks Blake, what"s a "significant gap"? You knew I"d ask) If we know what is "right" or "good" we should be able to come up with what"s "wrong" or "bad" shouldn"t we? Since there are supposed consequences of a poor bite, maybe I should have been asking what is considered "inconsequential"? Is it any bite that doesn"t slice open pups (not sure I buy this one anyway but musta happened somewhere/sometime)? Any bite that doesn"t require repeated trips to the vet for secondary dental health issues? Something in between? Regarding the breed standards, I"m not the type to blindly accept what"s written in a book as gospel, especially when my experience doesn"t seem to bear out the logic or rationale of something - never hurts to discuss the reasoning behind it IMO. Doesn"t mean I don"t follow the rules or recommendations - I do, with angst sometimes, until they change! I also don"t want to be ruling out good dogs from the gene pool/breeding list for less than perfect, but still acceptable, bites - that"s what I"m trying to gleen from this.

This may seem harsh but in my book a bad bite is any that isn"t good and that basically means perfect. That"s the only way you will ever get compliance from the breeders, otherwise they will do just w